Reqieumthefallen's Hoth layout idea (and intro)

Hello, I am Reqieumthefallen.

I'm here to help work on the map layouts, along with testing (I'm good at finding bugs). I imagine I'll also be joining you all in the discussions over the game's design and such. I've already drawn up a level sketch of an updated version of Hoth, which I'll first post here and will post to the Hoth thread if needed.



It's a remix from the original map layout. I feel it adds a great deal more content while only being one half larger than the original map. I can move any of the command posts, but I've set this mock-up in order for a challenging but balanced siege/defense of Hoth base. The key smaller outpost by the shield generator will be the main area of conflict after the shield generator is down -- we could even have it that there is a shield that blocks any shots from hitting the ion cannon to the northwest. The two tight valleys will easily slaughter infantry, but if mech support and snipers can break the Rebel defense, the Empire can push forward. Once taken by the Empire, the Imperial forces can begin trying to take the Rebel base, but the Rebels will have several fallback positions besides the hanger. In theory, we could even set up an additional post in the rear landing area (the giant gap in the mountains near the Legend box). The Imperials have several prefab bases (per the suggestion in the Hoth thread) and have some defense turrets with which to hold off any Rebel counter attacks.

It adds all the key elements in while not overwhelming players. It's got more of a tight layout design than the original Hoth map, but that also means it will take less time for players to get to the action. The Imperial bases have enough space between them and the main battle to keep them from being rushed, and the same goes for the Hoth base.

Hello. Can you be more precise please? We don't know what is the "Underground", "Aboveground"... and what's in them.

Undeground sections would be beneath ground. For instance, caverns or the Rebel Base within the mountain.

Aboveground areas would be higher locations that have longer view distances than average. Usually they are also sniping positions, but I would imagine it could also be used for rocket launcher attacks or grenades being tossed at troops/mechs below.

Does that clarify it enough?

Welcome aboard please join all the other discussions about gameplay features, too.

Some thoughts I had of your map layout:
- I like the idea of having the Ion cannon on the actual battleground.
- The generator should be pushed back a bit. The AT-ATs shouldn't be able to hit it from their spawn point.
- The entrance to the hangar should be a bit more concealed by the surrounding hills.
- Would you allow the empire troops to walk 'on' the echo base/hangar?
- The main empire base should be a bit more concealed, too. Maybe add a hill coming from the right where the one Empire CP is.
- I like the map idea. It's a bit like the payload maps for TF2 if you play the empire. I dunno how exactly the battlefield in the movies were laid out, I think the Empire attacked more from the front than around a hill/mountain. We shouldn't be too single minded about making it as close to the movies though. Gameplay is more important than being 100% accurate.

Quick and dirty layout paintover:

Hmm, I like the changes, besides the hanger. I'll implement the changes.

As to the (?). That's a sniping post. It won't have perfect view of the Imperials, but it will give them a clear view at the trenches leading up to the shield generator.

It's going to be annoying for the imperials to have to go around that bend each starting map. It doesn't make too much sense for the imperials to attack in such an awkward way. I think it should try to be a more layered frontal assault that the rebels can keep falling back to. Hoth





http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Hoth
remember, this was the greatest defeat of the rebels and their last bastion. The imperials attacked full on determined to crush them.

Is there any way that we could implement an automatic kill feature if the players leave the battlezone. We should try and make it look as legit as possible with the movie. So wide open space.... Only two or three mountain ranges, One behind the shield generator and one to the far North East of where the Empire spawns by Deforges map.

Killing the player when he's too far from the battlefront shouldn't be too difficult.
I think there should be something in between the Empire cps and the echo base. Maybe some small hills to give ground troops at least a bit of cover from snipers (of course only in the valleys between the small hills).

And the two mountain ranges should be created when we roughly finished the playable area. Should we do the mountains with actual terrain or pictures/models?

The main reason I made it so compact is because one of the worst things in Battlefront was trying to make it to the fight, then just getting slaughtered (a similar issue in Planetside 2 as well). That's why Pandemic had the original map more compact. I've played user-made maps for both games that added more scale to Hoth, and while both were admittedly impressive, I just had trouble justifying the size when I considered how long it took to get anywhere. We need to keep players interested along with being iconic. If it weren't for that, I'd be right on board with Deforges' map layout.


Also, there was one game that made it feel a bit more like a somewhat more balanced (but still clearly Imperial victory) battle -- Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds, which was what I was using for inspiration along with the original Battlefront map.

Guys, I've moved this topic as it is more about the Hoth map layout than an actual new member intro.

I really like Deforges' layout i might make one too.

Ok, i have done one:

...I can't deny it, that map is so hard to discern. And it feels very... unlike bot the original map and the actual movie layout. Also, aircraft would not be able to make sharp turns like you have them doing at J and C.

The Ion Cannon is far too large to be kept attached to the rest of the base. It's a separate installation ( http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=n3L&sa=X&tbo=d&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1400&bih=730&tbm=isch&tbnid=tZmSyjXlGXEKxM:&imgrefurl=http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/V-150_anti-orbital_ion_cannon&docid=jeBxs2oDmEcPFM&imgurl=http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20061113190735/starwars/images/3/37/Ion_Cannon_%28Hoth%29.jpg&w=662&h=905&ei=ZGu-UPznM6Xj0gG27ICwCw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=4&vpy=91&dur=1259&hovh=263&hovw=192&tx=68&ty=287&sig=111135265113737152965&page=1&tbnh=136&tbnw=99&start=0&ndsp=27&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0,i:86 )

I also have issue with the fact that the way it's set up, it will be a constant stalemate at the primary hanger. Snow speeders won't have a chance of lifting off and Imperials will only be able to make a direct suicidal assault with no cover or advantage beyond the AT-ATs. The Rebels could just camp in the hanger and snipe out most of the Imperial forces. And even if the Imperials get inside, the Rebel's have three more choke points in even smaller areas that would be even harder to clear, considering the player count. This is why I tried to make 3 areas of focus in my layout. There's the initial landing of Imperials and the trenches, then there's the shield generator and base beside it, then there's ECHO base and its interior. Strategies shift depending on what area is contested. I don't see nearly as many options in this layout. That said, Deforges layout also has multiple areas of focus -- we'd just need to keep the players from getting bored from all the travel necessary at present.

Reqieumthefallen wrote:

...I can't deny it, that map is so hard to discern. And it feels very... unlike bot the original map

Yes, that's wanted.

Reqieumthefallen wrote:

and the actual movie layout

False it is based on the official echo base interior drawing: http://dawnofthejedi.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/echobase.jpg

Reqieumthefallen wrote:

Also, aircraft would not be able to make sharp turns like you have them doing at J and C.

They can on the official layout.

Reqieumthefallen wrote:

The Ion Cannon is far too large to be kept attached to the rest of the base. It's a separate installation ( http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=n3L&sa=X&tbo=d&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1400&bih=730&tbm=isch&tbnid=tZmSyjXlGXEKxM:&imgrefurl=http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/V-150_anti-orbital_ion_cannon&docid=jeBxs2oDmEcPFM&imgurl=http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20061113190735/starwars/images/3/37/Ion_Cannon_%28Hoth%29.jpg&w=662&h=905&ei=ZGu-UPznM6Xj0gG27ICwCw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=4&vpy=91&dur=1259&hovh=263&hovw=192&tx=68&ty=287&sig=111135265113737152965&page=1&tbnh=136&tbnw=99&start=0&ndsp=27&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0,i:86 )

It is linked to the lower levels of the Echo Base.

Reqieumthefallen wrote:

I also have issue with the fact that the way it's set up, it will be a constant stalemate at the primary hanger. Snow speeders won't have a chance of lifting off and Imperials will only be able to make a direct suicidal assault with no cover or advantage beyond the AT-ATs. The Rebels could just camp in the hanger and snipe out most of the Imperial forces. And even if the Imperials get inside, the Rebel's have three more choke points in even smaller areas that would be even harder to clear, considering the player count. This is why I tried to make 3 areas of focus in my layout. There's the initial landing of Imperials and the trenches, then there's the shield generator and base beside it, then there's ECHO base and its interior. Strategies shift depending on what area is contested. I don't see nearly as many options in this layout. That said, Deforges layout also has multiple areas of focus -- we'd just need to keep the players from getting bored from all the travel necessary at present.

You are right, although traveling a nice environment area isn't boring and it can create close-quarter battles.

Lephenix wrote:

Yes, that's wanted.

...you wanted the map to be confusing and hard to understand? I tried to keep mine relatively clean.

Lephenix wrote:

False it is based on the official echo base interior drawing: http://dawnofthejedi.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/echobase.jpg

Okay, you've got me there, but the layout is still not designed in a practical manner for an FPS. Most of my criticism still are pertinent to that, it just means that they're towards the original layout that inspired your's.

Lephenix wrote:

Reqieumthefallen wrote:

Also, aircraft would not be able to make sharp turns like you have them doing at J and C.

They can on the official layout.

...that's a bit vague. Do you mean you intend to resize the hangers? Or are we ignoring the whole fact about how X-wings and Y-wings don't perform well after being active for a while when on Hoth?

Lephenix wrote:

Reqieumthefallen wrote:

The Ion Cannon is far too large to be kept attached to the rest of the base. It's a separate installation

It is linked to the lower levels of the Echo Base.

Yes but are we going to make that large a level? It seems like an unnecessary amount of area to tread. In any FPS game, players will find the quickest route to get somewhere, and will figure out the best tactical exploits of a level's layout. So no matter what, we'll probably have to iterate the interior of Echo Base several times if we want to keep the players flowing between points of interest -- and it's best that we make it less of a maze as a result.

I think it's better that we just leave the Ion Cannon separate, at most -- as a destructible object the Empire can take out. Once again, we don't want to spread out the teams too much.

Lephenix wrote:

You are right, although traveling a nice environment area isn't boring and it can create close-quarter battles.

...I'll admit that a nice atmosphere can be intriguing but people are going to be here to fight, not to take a nice tour through the snowdrifts of Hoth. As to creating close-quarter battles... that seems like an unlike thing. That's pretty much, just hoping that some player and an enemy will bump into each other while doing leg work trying to get to something important. I was often in this type of scenario in Planetside 2's beta, and it was never fun. It was frustrating, especially when you're the player at the disadvantage because you have a sniper rifle with two shots and slow aiming and they brought an assault rifle with a reflex scope and a full clip of ammo. It's easier to control the flow of play rather than just letting the players wander, that way you can ensure there is good play and counter-play.

It's not a lot of fun to run for 10 minutes to get to the battle in BF3 and it definitely has great looking environments. So having to travel a lot without any shooting is bad.

I think with the movie layout he meant the whole layout, not just the echo base.

Your layout is too straight IMO. Right now the AT-ATs could shoot directly into the hangar. There is no real place for the snowspeeders to maneuver either.
In the movie the hangar was concealed (actually very similar to SWBFs layout of that part of the map), the Empire had to move around a hill to see the hangar entrance.

My quick paintover of Deforges' layout:
I added some more mountains/hills to make it not just one big plane.
I switched out the front bunker at the center mountain for 2 smaller bunkers.
The back entrance (transporter starting place in SWBF 2) is now a bit more concealed and harder to capture. So now the main attack point will be at the shield generator and snow speeder hangar.
I overall compressed the upper part of the map, I think there was not enough stuff for such a big space, it would only take longer to get to the battle.
What I just thought of but forgot to include in the paintover is some way to get into the tunnels on the far left side of the layout without going through the hangars, maybe via the small tunnel indicated next to the transporters I painted in.
The tunnels have to be changed a bit, too. We have to somewhat logically link the hangars, med bay, control center and maybe some other rooms together.

LOL

Schlechtwetterfront wrote:

It's not a lot of fun to run for 10 minutes to get to the battle in BF3 and it definitely has great looking environments. So having to travel a lot without any shooting is bad.

I think with the movie layout he meant the whole layout, not just the echo base.

Your layout is too straight IMO. Right now the AT-ATs could shoot directly into the hangar. There is no real place for the snowspeeders to maneuver either.
In the movie the hangar was concealed (actually very similar to SWBFs layout of that part of the map), the Empire had to move around a hill to see the hangar entrance.

My quick paintover of Deforges' layout:
I added some more mountains/hills to make it not just one big plane.
I switched out the front bunker at the center mountain for 2 smaller bunkers.
The back entrance (transporter starting place in SWBF 2) is now a bit more concealed and harder to capture. So now the main attack point will be at the shield generator and snow speeder hangar.
I overall compressed the upper part of the map, I think there was not enough stuff for such a big space, it would only take longer to get to the battle.
What I just thought of but forgot to include in the paintover is some way to get into the tunnels on the far left side of the layout without going through the hangars, maybe via the small tunnel indicated next to the transporters I painted in.
The tunnels have to be changed a bit, too. We have to somewhat logically link the hangars, med bay, control center and maybe some other rooms together.

Alright, I like the look of this alternate version.

Yeah I think this is the right scale and look we should be shooting for. I like it.

Cool.
Then we should draw up a detailed layout of the tunnels with actual rooms like the med bay and control center.
If we can get everyone to agree on a rough layout we can quickly mock up a versionfor the gameplay teaser around christmas.

Yes, i like it, although, something i should have mentioned, is that i focused on the layout of the Echo base, but not the exterior (it is not what i want at all). Also, one really important thing for the next time. The layout has to be made before we start the map, so we can get a clear idea of what's needed how it is placed etc...

OK, as you've made yourself familiar with the layout you could now take my layout and change the tunnels to resemble the echo base more closely.

And I agree with the second point, in this case it was not as important because most of the exterior is terrain but with for example Cloud City or Death Star we have to think about the design before starting the modelling.

I know you're trying to stay true to the cross section but I think when that cross section was made he used his imagination and liberties. As you have it now the base doesn't seem to be built into the terrain like it's supposed to be but rather it was built independently.

I like the vehicle spawns you've got going on. Other elements like the trenches are placed weirdly. All in all the map still seems very small and crowded. Especially the rebel snow speeders would have an awkward time trying to get just get out of the hanger. The way the waypoints are set up it seems like it would just take the imperials one point to ensure victory because of how close together they are. They also are mostly allocated to the bottom side of the screen.