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 Reqieumthefallen's Hoth layout idea (and intro)

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SharkYbg
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PostSubject: Re: Reqieumthefallen's Hoth layout idea (and intro)   Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:32 am

Oh my, i think the Schlechtwetterfront's version of Hoth might really work out.

I like how the main battle is focused on the bottom, and there's a alternative way to Echo Base.

But won't the map become too big?

I think that there should be 2 entries to Echo from both bottom and top side( one from the hangars on each side and another from bunkers).

I don't have time to paint my ideas but what if we make the imperials to spawn only on the top red dot and eliminate the bottom one(the top one will need to moved around so it's not so up). From there they will be able to use AT-ATs, AT-STs and speedbikes. We will keep the route to the Transports but make it so the AT-ATs can't go trough it which will make them go to the bottom where the trenches are and the generator. That way the starting imperial CP won't be open and the top route will be use only by speedbikes or maybe AT-STs.

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PostSubject: Re: Reqieumthefallen's Hoth layout idea (and intro)   Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:13 pm

I have an idea that might be worth trying -- how many people here have Battlefront 2 for PC? It might be worth hosting a private match, where we'd all play on Hoth and get to make some fresh observations.

I wouldn't say it's necessary, but it might help sharpen our focus on what needs better done on our iteration of the Hoth map.
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PostSubject: Re: Reqieumthefallen's Hoth layout idea (and intro)   Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:57 pm

I think most of us have SWBF2, if you join our skype we could maybe play a few rounds sometime.
Sharky best draw your ideas. Easier to imagine.
I think lephs vehicle spawns would work nicely for my layout. Only speederbikes at the top and heavier vehicles at the bottom.
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PostSubject: Re: Reqieumthefallen's Hoth layout idea (and intro)   Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:08 am

Schlechtwetterfront wrote:
I think most of us have SWBF2, if you join our skype we could maybe play a few rounds sometime.
Sharky best draw your ideas. Easier to imagine.
I think lephs vehicle spawns would work nicely for my layout. Only speederbikes at the top and heavier vehicles at the bottom.

I already have Cameron on Skype, and he set up a chatroom but I've seen no one else added to it.
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PostSubject: Re: Reqieumthefallen's Hoth layout idea (and intro)   Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:25 am

Hoth is pretty big, both in the movie and SWBF2. In fact its the only map (apart from Kashykk, I think), that has the XL option. XL: massive battles. it need to be big.

My idea was to have like 64 players max, then with XL enable, like a 50-100 bots.

Don't forget, even if we do not manage to implement ground to space direct combat, there will still be orbital bombards, which means there has to be a bit of space to run around to avoid the shots and not have everyone clustered up where they can be taken out with one SD shot.
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PostSubject: Re: Reqieumthefallen's Hoth layout idea (and intro)   Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:33 am

sceluk wrote:
Hoth is pretty big, both in the movie and SWBF2. In fact its the only map (apart from Kashykk, I think), that has the XL option. XL: massive battles. it need to be big.

My idea was to have like 64 players max, then with XL enable, like a 50-100 bots.

Don't forget, even if we do not manage to implement ground to space direct combat, there will still be orbital bombards, which means there has to be a bit of space to run around to avoid the shots and not have everyone clustered up where they can be taken out with one SD shot.

I seem to remember XL being a bit too chaotic, especially considering the AI was dumb as a shovel.

Orbital Bombardments were rather easy to evade even on small maps, in the original Battlefront (and in the PSP games -- I got to try Renegade and it worked relatively the same). The shots just need to be limited in their range of fire and how often they can be used.
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PostSubject: Re: Reqieumthefallen's Hoth layout idea (and intro)   Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:05 am

We can't use orbital bombardments. That's why they had the shield generator.


Quote :
They would then initiate limited long-range orbital bombardment to destroy any spacecraft and defenses, followed by a sweeping ground assault to capture any survivors.

The plan would have likely allowed the Imperials to easily take the planet with few casualties. However, Admiral Kendal Ozzel made his own assault plan, and exited hyperspace too close to the star system planning for a saturated bombardment. This tactical blunder allowed the Rebel's early-warning sensors to detect the fleet. The theater shield protecting Echo Base was activated, which precluded any undesirable bombardment. An angry Darth Vader executed the Admiral with Force Choke for his incompetence and promoted Firmus Piett, then chief fleet captain of the Star Dreadnought Executor, to Admiral.[1]
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PostSubject: Re: Reqieumthefallen's Hoth layout idea (and intro)   Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:10 am

Orbital bombardment would be a 'unlock' for the Empire after they destroyed the shield generator.
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PostSubject: Re: Reqieumthefallen's Hoth layout idea (and intro)   Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:13 am

naturally
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PostSubject: Re: Reqieumthefallen's Hoth layout idea (and intro)   Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:43 pm

Schlechtwetterfront wrote:
Orbital bombardment would be a 'unlock' for the Empire after they destroyed the shield generator.

However it should be noted that the Imperials primarily broke the shields just so they could begin landing an attack force. Perhaps the Empire instead could gain an additional command post as an alternative option?

Edit: In fact, having dynamic choices mid-battle that can shift the tactical landscape would be a really neat and unique feature. It would significantly improve replayability.
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PostSubject: Re: Reqieumthefallen's Hoth layout idea (and intro)   Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:28 pm

Remember the blocks of ice falling from the ceiling? That's your orbital bombardment. lemme try and find the quote where Leia says it.
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PostSubject: Re: Reqieumthefallen's Hoth layout idea (and intro)   Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:38 am

sceluk wrote:
Remember the blocks of ice falling from the ceiling? That's your orbital bombardment. lemme try and find the quote where Leia says it.

I said "primarily" for the landing party. So yes, I remember when they talk about the bombardment. They blow a hole in the mountain. However, they only do that to help the troops get inside in order to trap the rebel forces. Otherwise, the bombardment would have torn the entire base apart and Vader would have lost all his potential prisoners.
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PostSubject: Re: Reqieumthefallen's Hoth layout idea (and intro)   Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:37 am

Yeah, but bombardment sounds cool. If it works out well in tests such a small lore problem should not keep us from implementing it.
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PostSubject: Re: Reqieumthefallen's Hoth layout idea (and intro)   Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:59 am

Yeah the bombardment would be awesome, how about when the empire owns a certain command post then a bombardment would be available to blow a hole into the side of the mountain where echo base is so the Empire can storm into it (as a Rebel, ownership of this command post is critical)
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PostSubject: Re: Reqieumthefallen's Hoth layout idea (and intro)   Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:48 pm

Ben2356 wrote:
Yeah the bombardment would be awesome, how about when the empire owns a certain command post then a bombardment would be available to blow a hole into the side of the mountain where echo base is so the Empire can storm into it (as a Rebel, ownership of this command post is critical)

I agree on the command post (I suggested something similar a few posts back). But a super power like bombardment needs to be handled carefully. Also, we need to give the Rebels some option to counter the Imperials, otherwise they'll likely lose. While that may have happened in canon, that doesn't necessarily mean everyone wants to lose every time they play as the Rebel Alliance.
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PostSubject: Re: Reqieumthefallen's Hoth layout idea (and intro)   Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:16 pm

We can have it so that if they tow three/five AT-AT with a snow speeder Luke becomes active for play.
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PostSubject: Re: Reqieumthefallen's Hoth layout idea (and intro)   Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:48 pm

Reqieumthefallen wrote:
Ben2356 wrote:
Yeah the bombardment would be awesome, how about when the empire owns a certain command post then a bombardment would be available to blow a hole into the side of the mountain where echo base is so the Empire can storm into it (as a Rebel, ownership of this command post is critical)

I agree on the command post (I suggested something similar a few posts back). But a super power like bombardment needs to be handled carefully. Also, we need to give the Rebels some option to counter the Imperials, otherwise they'll likely lose. While that may have happened in canon, that doesn't necessarily mean everyone wants to lose every time they play as the Rebel Alliance.

The shield generator would be a good counter to prevent the bombardment unless it is destroyed. That way each side has to achieve or defend something to make the bombardment take place and there is equal chance. Or we could have the bombardment be so that it is not a big thing and instead turrets on the star destroyer in orbit (a few or so) can just shoot down at the land battle to try and get kills.


On another note, Are we going to have it so the Star Destroyer can be blown up from the inside cause I think that would be a great mechanic to make some truly epic battles and an actual reason to board an enemy capital ship.
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PostSubject: Re: Reqieumthefallen's Hoth layout idea (and intro)   Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:46 am

Ben2356 wrote:
Reqieumthefallen wrote:
Ben2356 wrote:
Yeah the bombardment would be awesome, how about when the empire owns a certain command post then a bombardment would be available to blow a hole into the side of the mountain where echo base is so the Empire can storm into it (as a Rebel, ownership of this command post is critical)

I agree on the command post (I suggested something similar a few posts back). But a super power like bombardment needs to be handled carefully. Also, we need to give the Rebels some option to counter the Imperials, otherwise they'll likely lose. While that may have happened in canon, that doesn't necessarily mean everyone wants to lose every time they play as the Rebel Alliance.

The shield generator would be a good counter to prevent the bombardment unless it is destroyed. That way each side has to achieve or defend something to make the bombardment take place and there is equal chance. Or we could have the bombardment be so that it is not a big thing and instead turrets on the star destroyer in orbit (a few or so) can just shoot down at the land battle to try and get kills.


On another note, Are we going to have it so the Star Destroyer can be blown up from the inside cause I think that would be a great mechanic to make some truly epic battles and an actual reason to board an enemy capital ship.

It sounds like a good idea in concept, but... do you guys know what a FOOS is? It stands for First Order Optimal Strategy Essentially, its the noob tube in CoD, the Zerg rush in Starcraft. What you're suggesting here, is that we make the generator be the Imperial FOOS. They will know that it makes it easier to win, they know they can push all their forces into it, then they immediately would get bombardment and an extra command post. The Rebels would be spread out either trying to capture the Imperial posts in a desperate attempt to stop them, or they will all just defend the generator as their FOOS. It takes all the other map elements out of focus and makes the rest of the battlefield seem arbitrary. We need to give them a reason to maybe -not- attack the generator. Maybe the Rebels have a better defense layout at the shield generator? Maybe you make the Imperial bombardment only a momentary bonus, and their new command post easily captured by the Rebels if they are quick to respond. We can't just think about this from the perspective of "what will be cool". This is play and counter-play we're dealing with. So if the Imperials can easily take out the shield generator, then they need to just as easily be stopped. Maybe make the snow speeders fast enough that it's hard to hit them (granted, that also means the area to fly needs to go above the canyon but not allow them to just camp on the ridges with sniper rifles)? Or give the speeders more armor? Or make the AT-AT aiming and movement significantly slow enough that doing anti-air would be too difficult and they have to depend upon ground troop support. These are all things we have to consider.
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PostSubject: Re: Reqieumthefallen's Hoth layout idea (and intro)   Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:47 am

The bombardment won't be that strong. The tunnels won't be affected at all and the bombardment should only be focused on one point of the map. Then either a long cooldown or the shots are not very strong.
But exactly how strong it will be has to be tested. And how it will work in general.
We have to think 'what would be cool', then we have to discuss if it's basically feasible for us, then we implement a basic version and then we'll see if it works.
And a reason why they might focus the AT-AT fire (only ones which should be able to destroy the generator) somewhere else. Without the fire support of the AT-ATs the ground troops will have a hard time getting access to the tunnels to get away from the snowspeeders.
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PostSubject: Re: Reqieumthefallen's Hoth layout idea (and intro)   Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:48 am

No, no, didn't we discuss this in the original Hoth map thread?
The Ion Cannon is the counter to the Orbital Bombardment.
Step 1: Imps have to destroy the shield generator.
Optional Step: Imps capture the Ion Cannon controls.
Step 2: Use an overhead minimap back at the base to call in bombards on the map.

Notes:
1. Orbital Bombardment has a cooldown. Small area (relative to map). Useful for busting through heavy held positions. useless against units inside mountain base.
2. Can only be called from the main Imperial Command post.
3. Ion Cannon can be fired to reset the cooldown timer\add to it.
4. Ion Cannon also has a cooldown. Just a little bit more than the OB's, so its still possible to bombard every now and then (i.e: very rarely), its just harder with the Ion Cannon in the hands of the rebels.
5 (Optional). Shield generator can be repaired. Only if the rebels capture its associated CP and devote a bit of time to it.
6 Oh yeah, and Orbital Bombard is friendly fire. Unless they coordinate they're gonna get themselves killed. I know this allows griefing, so we could make it impossible to shoot while there are a majority of Imperial troops in the area. still allowed if there are like 3 Rebels:1 Imp. reflects imperial callousness.
So yeah, the Imps can just destroy the shield generator, but unless they capture the ion cannon controls as well, they aint' gonna be firin much.
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PostSubject: Re: Reqieumthefallen's Hoth layout idea (and intro)   Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:22 am

Right, totally forgot about the Ion cannon! Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Reqieumthefallen's Hoth layout idea (and intro)   Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:27 am

Yeah, I'm working hard on the GDD so we can put up stickies in each forum with a list of the stuff that been discussed and mostly agreed on. (Still open to suggestions of course).
It's needed now that we've started a bit of work and info starts getting buried.
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PostSubject: Re: Reqieumthefallen's Hoth layout idea (and intro)   Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:57 am

Nice one sceluk, we really could do with a sollid GDD.
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PostSubject: Re: Reqieumthefallen's Hoth layout idea (and intro)   Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:07 am

I think we should finish the layout, start blocking out the level and the terrain before going into bombardment mechanics.
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PostSubject: Re: Reqieumthefallen's Hoth layout idea (and intro)   Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:17 am

No. As you said it's mechanics. The other one is visual design. Bombardment will either work, or not. It's not dependent on how exactly the map looks (unless of course it's too small). We can use it on other maps, too so it's not directly 'linked' to hoth.
Most people agreed roughly on my design. If you have some more suggestions do tell. Smile
A lot of the 'blockout' is the terrain so someone needs to get working on that.
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