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Schlechtwetterfront

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PostSubject: Class System   Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:48 am

How exactly do we want to have the class system?

  • How many classes? Dynamic amount? 4 classes like in BF3 (medic, supporter, recon, engineer)?
  • Loadout customization (different rifles, tools etc)?
  • Exactly mirrored classes for the two teams?
  • And many more questions, can't think of any right now.


SWBF I's classes were OK,
  • Trooper: Assault rifle, pistol and grenades.
  • Anti tank: Rocketlauncher, pistol, grenades and mines.
  • Pilot: Shotgun / Grenade launcher / lightning rifle, pistol, repair tool and med/ammo packs.
  • Sniper: Sniper rifle, pistol, grenades and the recon droid.
  • Special: Darktrooper(jetpack), Wookiee(lots of weaponry), Clone Jettrooper(overpowered jettrooper), Droideka(only good for quickly capturing a CP).


I'd change them more into something like this:
  • Trooper:
    Assault rifle, Pistol, Grenades
    Medpack
  • Anti tank:
    Assault rifle/carbine, pistol, rocket launcher, grenades
    mines?, explosives(C4)?
  • Pilot:
    Carbine, pistol
    repair tool, ?
  • Scout:
    Carbine/sniper rifle, pistol, grenades
    motions sensors?
  • Special:
    Depends, has to be balanced. If we do jet troopers then with not that good weaponry and less health.
    Wookiees would be more like a 'Heavy' with strong weapons(bowcaster), more health, but slower.

The ammo pack is missing right now though.

IMO SWBF IIs classes were crappy. The engineers had actual shotguns with projectiles, the clone commander had a minigun (again with actual projectiles), the imperial commander had that weird bubble-gun. All in all weird, non-Star Wars weaponry.
Blasters should be the main weapons you fight with. In SWBF matches, the most used soldiers were anti-tanks (really strong rocketlaunchers, fast to reload, mines), CIS and empire pilots for their grenade launchers and ammo/health packs, the rebel pilot for the ammo/health pack and his pretty good shotgun. Then of course the jet troopers for overpoweredness. The darktrooper only had a shotgun so he was OK. The clone jettrooper had his 'mini rocketlauncher' which was totally overpowered. The focus was on mostly explosive weapons. I wantz blasters...

Customization:
I'm against total customization (like in COD). More like Battlefield (but obviously fewer options).
The actual code for basic customization is not a problem. Just some more lines of code for the UI.

Just throw all your suggestions in here. Classes are the base of all the gameplay in the SWBF series so me thinks we should make them as good as possible.
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PostSubject: Re: Class System   Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:45 am

4-5 classes should work - Main Class like trooper,Anti Vehicle class, sniper class, pilots/medics and + 1 or 2 classes including special one and heavy?

Making mirrored classes will be good enough for a start. Later we can take one side and upgrade one of their classes and make another class weaker but since both Empire and Rebels use different weapons we can make them so one side has weapons with higher rate of fire and the other has weapons with lower rate of fire but higher damage.

What your idea is to make the classes like in battlefield 3 which i personally don't like for many reasons:

1) Anti tank should not have Assault riffle or any carbine. The reason? Well, because everyone will play the Anti tank class even more and the others will be hardly touched. There's no balance in putting a class with rocket launcher + assault riffle/carbine . Otherwise why we need the Trooper at all? A rocket launcher as a primary weapon + a pistol for self defence + other defence weapons like mines/C4/granades ( these can be chosen by the player)

Or a nice compromise is if we put in the anti tank a riffle that doesn't do so much damage and the Rocket Launcher shouldn't have more than 2 rockets. That way this class will require more tactic and not just shoot with these rockets everywhere.

2) Scout should be distinct and have only sniper rifle + pistol + grenades + a flying turret like in BF1 and not have multiple roles .

3)Pilot should have only pistol or one of those projectile weapons that are hard to hit but still do a good amount of damage. This class should be not for fighting after all. The name talks for it purpose. Also he can carry some ammo and health or we can make a medic class like the trooper but with less armament and main weapon dealing lower damage.

4) I agree that the specials should be balanced. But if we balance it so much it won't be special much. Just the appearance will be different . We can make the special class to be available to the top players or there will be limit for special classes on both sides ( 2 or 3). They will need to be stronger but will have e certain week spot. For example it might be the weapon requiring a lot of skill to shoot/melee weapon or thing on their back that is their weak spot. We can make them like a little boss that is only infantry based and cannot fly or pilot any vehicles.



Customization show be minimum or not included at all. That was the good thing in both BF games. But again , all classes should be distinct and have their own role and be balanced first.

Sorry that i am not taking example from the modern shooters because actually they are not even close to good ( most of them).
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PostSubject: Re: Class System   Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:55 am

Some minor customisations would be nice, things like attached grenade launchers or attached flame-throwers would be suitable, I don't think actually being able to change the weapons/equipment you carry is a good idea. The pre-set weapons and equipment are there for a reason.

Perhaps you could buy things like extra grenade slots or a suit upgrade that give you a speed increase.
I'm not sure about removing the mini-guns and bubble-gun (grenade launchers) as fans of the game might miss them. Maybe we could make some kind of compromise (making a repeating rifle as opposed to a mini-gun, for example).

Exactly mirrored teams? In terms of hp, weapon damage and equipment type, yes they should be identical. This should be easy enough to achieve.

There should be 2 specials on each team, you forgot manugaurds, imperial guards, etc.

I don't think giving weak weapons to jet trooper is a good idea because it's already hard to kill people as it is when you're flying about imo. Reducing health and limiting the amount of grenades or ammo would be a better idea.

There should be 2 different pilot classes.

One is a trooper that has a rocket launcher, mines, grenades, a rifle and a blaster pistol and the other is an engineer that has a repair tool, a pistol and time-bombs. The engineer can heal any space vehicle he's piloting or riding in, whereas, the trooper cannot.

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PostSubject: Re: Class System   Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:51 am

IMO, their should be 4 tiers of classes:
Tier 1 - Basic Classes, like you guys said, filling the roles of Debuff\Buff\Heal (Smuggler\Engie), Sniper(Sniper\Scout), Trooper, and Anti-Vehicle\Heavy.
Tier 2 - Limit of X per per side. These are unlocked only when player gets Y points without dying\killstreak (or something else, I'm open to suggestions). Should be all unique, but balanced relative to each other (stronger than Tier 1 however), preferably filling in roles that are a bit weak for that faction.
Tier 3 - Limit of Z per side (obv less than Tier 2). Same as Tier 2 to unlock. Again like Tier 2 in terms of balance to each other, roles, but stronger, preferably with 1 unique ability.
Tier 4 - Hero Tier. OP as hell (regards to other classes). Limit of 1 per side. Timed. Still balance (kinda), relative to each other. Have minimum 1 unique ability. Game-changers.

For space combat, we have the Pilot (autoheal, fix stuff, hacking, bombs) and Marine (heavy assault\ship defence).

About the mini guns - they exist in Clone Wars TV series\books, and they make sense. I agree they we oughtta to make our own version, though that does not look like an Earth min gun but more like a bulky laser rifle that has very high RoF and recoil (sketch time!).
The bubble guns are the Geonisian sonic weapons, but I agree the Empire shouldn't have them. They do not fit. Seperatists yes).
Remember, in SW, all weapons are projectile. There is no hitscan (except for snipers, or make the bolt very fast).

For Balance, look at TF2. Each class is equally useful, even though they have differing HP and Dmg output. Or Starcraft (not II, Brood War).
Mirrored Classes on both sides is mega boring. I have played games like those (Bigpoint's online games are like that), and it does not feel good.
More later on my ideas for loadouts and other stuff.
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PostSubject: Re: Class System   Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:20 am

What I want mainly is that all(most) primary weapons should be blaster weapons(semi or fully automatic). That's why I gave the anti tank and the pilot a carbine. In the movies you nearly never see anyone using explosive weapons or weapons with metal projectiles. I think we should try to do this with the classes, too. Like in BF3 everyones primary weapons is some sort of rifle (assault, shotgun, sniper, smg etc) with bullets.

Tiers of classes: Could be good. I don't like the unlocking part though. I think every class should be open to every player at the same time. Maybe enable tiers after a objective is done.

Space combat: Agreed, although maybe we could introduce another class if we think of something good.

Mini guns: Yes, if they had blaster bolts and felt like blaster weapons then I agree. SWBF IIs minigun doesnt feel like that though. Very Happy

Re TF2:
Totally agreed. All classes should be needed to totally win a game. That's why I think it's important to divide the roles (medic, ammo guy, repair guy, defense/offense) between the classes.
Right now the trooper doesnt really have a role. His rifle is not very good either (SWBF and SWBFII).
Anti tank has his role (anti tank!) but in SWBF I he was too good against infantry with his rockets.
Pilot had too many roles (medic, ammo guy and repair guy).
Sniper is only a sniper. I loathe snipers (especially in team games like TF2 and BF3). They often only camp, that's why we should change him into more of a scout.
Special: Multiple roles but the jettroopers were overpowered.

We could of course go for maybe 6 classes for tier 1, 4 for tier 2, 2-3 for tier 3 and 1 for tier 4 and just make them all very specialized.
We could have two identical storm troopers, only the one has a med pack and the other one has a ammo pack. We have many options. Very Happy
Or we could just go for a few( 4 or 5) but then they have to be even more balanced. Does anyone remembere how Free Radical did the classes in their SWBF3?
That would be interesting to know.

Re Customization: I think maybe 2 different loadouts for a class would be good. For example one more for close range battle (maybe blaster carbine) and one for longe range battle (blaster rifle).

Re: Mirrored classes. I dont want exactly mirrored classes. But they should have the same abilities so no side is overpowered (Empire and Clones in SWBF).

This will be a long discussion. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Class System   Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:28 am

Quick Reply before I go bust my head against Turing Machine Theory: Tiers are unlockable for a reason. Tier 2 and up are strong and stronger classes. If they were available for everybody, everyone would use those.
The more skill you have\points for doing objectives\whateva, you get better classes for that match.
It gives players incentive. Dunno if I made my point. Will elaborate later.
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PostSubject: Re: Class System   Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:42 am

I think their should be unlockable classes as well. The basic class does have a use, they are used to fight other basic classes and do their own kind of damage to other units. Over the years of playing battlefront, battlefield and COD basic class units have multiple uses. Slow type classes like the heavy class and fast type units like the sniper class have perks such as heavy damage but slow movement or fast movement and low defense. Basic unit class would be able to take out both if used correctly.

I think we all agree that there should be the basic unit class, heavy class, recon class and engineer class. Perhaps we perfect all of those classes before working on the special type units.
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PostSubject: Re: Class System   Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:17 pm

Yeah. That is most likely the best approach.
We should just decide now how many base classes we want. Later we can add more tiers/classes.
There are two ways how to define a class. Either by weapon or by role:
Weapons:
- blaster rifle (A280/DLT 19)
- semi automatic blaster rifles (higher damage, maybe even area damage)
- blaster sniper rifle (don't know any names, only one appeareance in the movies[bounty hunter in EP2] I think)
- blaster carbine (DC 15, E 11)
(- repeating blaster)
(- blaster cannon (shotgun))

Roles:
- medic (medpack)
- support (ammo pack)
- repair guy (repair tool)
- scout (motion sensors/recon droid)
- anti tank (rocket launcher)

So we could say: The first class will have a blaster rifle, which is heavier than a blaster carbine but does more damage. Then we can think about which role fits that guy best and assign it to him.
Or we say the first class is a medic. Then we think about which weapons fits him best.
We of course can assign multiple roles to one class. For example scout and support or anti tank and repair guy. But IMO there shouldn't be more than 2 roles per class.

Watched some SWBFIII vids, they seem to have based their classes on SWBF I. They had quite a lot of classes though.
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PostSubject: Re: Class System   Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:51 am

In my opinion choosing what type of classes we want will make it easier to choose with what weapons we want to equip them.
It will be easier to balance them by class first and decide what their strengths and weaknesses are compared to the classes of the opposite side and later choose the appropriate weapons.

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PostSubject: Re: Class System   Sun Nov 11, 2012 3:08 pm

I am all for the changing of weapons and equipment for the classes. It is essential to help players to adapt to the current situation and allow a degree of customization and depth to the game.

Another idea is that there are no real major classes and you just equip what you believe is necessary. This is kind of a hectic idea but I am just throwing it out there
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PostSubject: Re: Class System   Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:07 pm

I think this is a good idea but for some modern shooters like battlefield 3. Except TF2 where you have tons of weapons but the role of the classes still doesn't change.

Although we can make visual customization where the player choose what armor he wants to wear or if he want to remove the helmet of the soldier and etc.

Also i think that if we make no classes the feeling that this is a battlefront game will be lost.
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PostSubject: Re: Class System   Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:44 am

If you need to take on a different role, just change the class. like in TF2 you can respawn at any time.
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PostSubject: Re: Class System   Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:07 am

I like SharkYbg's idea of being able to customize the armor and helmets, etc of the soldier. It would be nice if the game could take on the customization of the player's soldier just like elite/renegade squadron (but class specific).

Otherwise I think that at least some customization of the guns would be nice if not weapon selection in the class through stuff like attachments, sights, ammo types, etc
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PostSubject: Re: Class System   Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:19 pm

I don't think a lot of weapon customization is a good idea right now. We can't use that much time on just a few small things.
Until we have every (base) class done with one set of weapons we shouldn't really do any customization. But we can talk about it. Very Happy

Classes I just made up right now (without weapons, just roles):

Medic: either area med pack like in the Battlefield games OR med pack for one guy like in Battlefront games OR Bacta injector => some sort of gun/syringe.

Support: Ammo pack. Here I'd go for area. He places the pack somewhere (maybe even some sort of station) where other troopers can regenerate their ammo from.

Pilot: Repair vehicles and maybe an explosive which does a lot of damage to enemy vehicles if you get close enough (think Luke vs AT-AT in Empire Strikes Back).

Anti Tank: Very heavy rocket launcher which doesn't have a lot of explosive radius (maybe 1.5 m) but does a lot of damage. The rocket should be somewhat slow and not perfectly accurate so it's not that easy to hit infantry with. Plus maybe mines against vehicles (and Infantry?).

Scout: Light weight trooper with maybe binoculars (used for spotting?) and some sort of motion sensor (droid).

That would be the base classes. Every faction would get some special classes (maybe changing on different maps?).

Now, TALK! Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Class System   Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:22 am

I think the classes should go something like this:

Assault: basic anti-infantry fighting class, uses assault rifles

Engineer/Pilot: repairs vehicles and contains some sort of shotgun like weapon for CQC battles

Medic: heals team mates with a bacta pack or can "revive" fallen soldiers with a bacta syringe, uses shorter range weapons (CQC)

Support: provides heavy weapons support (think LMGs) and can supply ammo when need to teammates

Heavy Assault: infantry with armaments required to take out vehicles with (rocket launcher, explosives, mines, etc)

Scout/Recon: sniper class with long range weapons like sniper rifles, has scout droid, spotting binoculars, can call in artillery support maybe?

and like Schlechtwetterfront said there should be some faction specific classes that are well balanced
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PostSubject: Re: Class System   Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:38 pm

Now the question is, why would anyone play the basic trooper?
The player could go for a heavier weapon + ammo pack or for a slightly lighter weapon and medpack. IMO the trooper is missing something which makes him special. Maybe something which makes him good against taking out multiple enemies or something.

It's nice that we agree on many of the classes though.

I'd like to hear some more suggestions!
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PostSubject: Re: Class System   Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:02 am

Schlechtwetterfront wrote:
Now the question is, why would anyone play the basic trooper?
The player could go for a heavier weapon + ammo pack or for a slightly lighter weapon and medpack. IMO the trooper is missing something which makes him special. Maybe something which makes him good against taking out multiple enemies or something.

It's nice that we agree on many of the classes though.

I'd like to hear some more suggestions!
lol what are the rebel trooper, storm trooper and snow trooper for then? Some people don't mind them at all, its like a little piece of everyone but not specialized in any single thing.
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PostSubject: Re: Class System   Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:45 am

In the battlefront games they were not a little piece of everyone. That its the problem.
They don't have a lot more health. They have none of the special abilities/items the other classes have. They have worse weapons, especially against real players (not AI). They were a bit better in SWBF II than in I but still pretty useless.
This is one of the biggest problems I have with SWBF, the class which coming from the movies should be used most was used the least.
That is why I want to change it. The stormtrooper or snowtrooper wont be removed. It will just have a different name (the medic could be the trooper for every side, a snowtrooper with a different name and a medpack) and different abilities.
Or we create a trooper class which actually is useful. Like I said, why should anyone trade on an ability like medpacks or ammopacks for a slightly different primary weapon(maybe a bit more damage or a bit better handling)? The trooper class would need something making it special. Let's take Bens classes. If I want to get in close I choose medic or pilot for close range wweapons. If I want to go long range I go sniper. If I want to help the team I go support or medic. If I want to destroy tanks I go Heavy. For great firepower I go support.
I'll try to get some dummy weapons and items like medpacks done soon so we can do some basic playtesting.
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PostSubject: Re: Class System   Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:51 am

The troopers were epic whenever you got the award rifle.

Are we going to have award weapons btw?

And let's not forget how important AI troopers are in the general gameplay.
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PostSubject: Re: Class System   Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:25 am

Schlechtwetterfront wrote:
In the battlefront games they were not a little piece of everyone. That its the problem.
They don't have a lot more health. They have none of the special abilities/items the other classes have. They have worse weapons, especially against real players (not AI). They were a bit better in SWBF II than in I but still pretty useless.
This is one of the biggest problems I have with SWBF, the class which coming from the movies should be used most was used the least.
That is why I want to change it. The stormtrooper or snowtrooper wont be removed. It will just have a different name (the medic could be the trooper for every side, a snowtrooper with a different name and a medpack) and different abilities.
Or we create a trooper class which actually is useful. Like I said, why should anyone trade on an ability like medpacks or ammopacks for a slightly different primary weapon(maybe a bit more damage or a bit better handling)? The trooper class would need something making it special. Let's take Bens classes. If I want to get in close I choose medic or pilot for close range wweapons. If I want to go long range I go sniper. If I want to help the team I go support or medic. If I want to destroy tanks I go Heavy. For great firepower I go support.
I'll try to get some dummy weapons and items like medpacks done soon so we can do some basic playtesting.
I think we can both agree on making them more useful in terms of gameplay. Ground troops were used for support, so they can utilize that. Support Units does sound way better than basic units.
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PostSubject: Re: Class System   Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:46 am

Well, we'll only have 2 (with maybe some different versions(w backpack, no backpack, with goghles, no goggles etc) of the two) character models so everyone will look like a basic trooper. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Class System   Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:16 am

I thought up the support units to add a little more teamwork to the game. Think of Battlefront 2, there is no real teamwork between players and I was playing battlefield 3 and almost everyone, even though its not true teamwork, throws down a medpack or ammo to help their teammates. What I am trying to say overall is that we should have teamwork within the classes to encourage a better overall experience.

Also in regards to the soldier class of my classes, I think that they should have an armor bonus or something to help them be better in firefights compared to the other classes. Also the soldiers wont be that great in CQ battles because an assault rifle is at disadvantage compared to other weapons like shotguns
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PostSubject: Re: Class System   Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:43 am

Schlechtwetterfront wrote:
I don't think a lot of weapon customization is a good idea right now. We can't use that much time on just a few small things.
Until we have every (base) class done with one set of weapons we shouldn't really do any customization. But we can talk about it. Very Happy

Classes I just made up right now (without weapons, just roles):

Medic: either area med pack like in the Battlefield games OR med pack for one guy like in Battlefront games OR Bacta injector => some sort of gun/syringe.

Support: Ammo pack. Here I'd go for area. He places the pack somewhere (maybe even some sort of station) where other troopers can regenerate their ammo from.

Pilot: Repair vehicles and maybe an explosive which does a lot of damage to enemy vehicles if you get close enough (think Luke vs AT-AT in Empire Strikes Back).

Anti Tank: Very heavy rocket launcher which doesn't have a lot of explosive radius (maybe 1.5 m) but does a lot of damage. The rocket should be somewhat slow and not perfectly accurate so it's not that easy to hit infantry with. Plus maybe mines against vehicles (and Infantry?).

Scout: Light weight trooper with maybe binoculars (used for spotting?) and some sort of motion sensor (droid).

That would be the base classes. Every faction would get some special classes (maybe changing on different maps?).

Now, TALK! Wink

I prefer this Cool .
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PostSubject: Re: Class System   Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:39 pm

Trooper should excel at what their supposed to do. Covering fire. Very powefrul assault rifles (especially the E-11, c'mon those things blew holes in duracrete and steel). with high rate of fire on full auto, or 3 shot burst with med precision and high rof. lots of ammo as well.
Tonight I will put down a detailed info dump of what the classes shoudl be IMo, ofc this is not what they will be, its is just my opinion.
we need to discuss them, probably the final decision will be a mix of all the good ideas. I still stand by my tiers idea.
Remember also, taking ideas from other games is good, but we have to have different things as well. (Another reason why some many games ideas did not get the greenlight at the company I worked with, or they did, and then failed.)
This is not to discourage, just from experience.
Also gameplay testing is the most important here, believe me. I once tested a game (i was a alpha tester for a games company) where one class was underpowered on paper, but in reality, it was OP as fuck.
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PostSubject: Re: Class System   Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:53 am

Agreed. Playtesting the classes is quite important. Wink
We just need to agree on one thing right now:

Do we want ammo/health packs like in SWBF: walk over it and use it up -> it disappears; limited amount of packs
OR like in Battlefield: 'AoE' health/ammo regen, disappears when new pack is dropped; infinite amount of packs because it's not useful to spam them
OR some sort of 'heal gun'/syringe; limited
OR med packs like in Left 4 Dead where it takes time to apply them to someone; limited

Because then I can begin writing the functionality for them. Of course we can change them later but it would be best if we choose the one we will stick with now. Wink
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